INTERVIEW: PHIL MCNULTY
Phil McNulty has been BBC Sport’s Chief Football Writer for nearly two decades, travelling the world to cover hundreds of games in the English Premier League, the Champions League and international football. And he has some strong opinions on Lionel Messi and his place in the history of the sport.
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Hi Phil, and thanks for talking to messiworldcup.com for our very first Interview. Let’s start with an easy question. You’ve seen Lionel Messi live on many occasions. Can you describe, especially for people who haven’t been lucky enough to see him play in person, what is it like to watch him in the flesh compared to on television?
“I think the main thing I noticed when I first saw Messi live was his speed with the ball at his feet. There are many things you can say about his natural brilliance, but perhaps more than anything it was that: the speed he has but without losing control, awareness or vision, which allows him to run with the ball but still have that picture of the whole pitch around him, and the ability to do something at the end of it. I also remember one of the first times I saw him live was when he scored that headed goal against Manchester United in the 2009 Champions League Final in Rome. Obviously everyone sees all his spectacular goals with his left foot, the way he creates chances for his colleagues, his free-kicks, his individual play, but that header against United showed when the occasion demands he can be absolutely brilliant in the air as well!”
You mention his awareness and his vision of the whole pitch, and that seems to allow him to always make the right decision …
“Yes. When he has the ball, he’s not just running aimlessly, he’s running with the ball at his feet at great pace, but still under full control and with complete awareness of everything around him. I remember speaking to Alan Hansen about Luka Modric, and he was saying that with great players, when the ball comes to their feet – or even before they receive it – they already have three or four options in their head about what they might do with it, and then they are invariably able to choose the right option. Messi obviously has that. He has been producing brilliance for years and years, and you’re talking arguably about the greatest player to have played the game – certainly the greatest player I’ve seen in the flesh. It’s not just all that natural brilliance he has, but also that he always delivers an end product to go with it.”
Do you think he’s changed as a player over the years?
“Yes, and great players are always able to adapt. We saw that when Luis Suarez arrived at Barcelona and at first there was various interchanging of roles before they found the right way to play together. Messi has always been able to change his game. He’s played in a variety of positions throughout his career and he’s produced world-class performances wherever he’s been asked to appear on the pitch. You can even imagine him playing in defence and still being brilliant. You maybe wouldn’t want him at centre back because of his height – although he does have that heading ability! – but he could easily play as a sweeper and see everything in front of him. He’s just an outstanding all-round footballer.”
“I think the main thing I noticed when I first saw Messi live was his speed with the ball at his feet. There are many things you can say about his natural brilliance, but perhaps more than anything it was that: the speed he has but without losing control, awareness or vision, which allows him to run with the ball but still have that picture of the whole pitch around him, and the ability to do something at the end of it. I also remember one of the first times I saw him live was when he scored that headed goal against Manchester United in the 2009 Champions League Final in Rome. Obviously everyone sees all his spectacular goals with his left foot, the way he creates chances for his colleagues, his free-kicks, his individual play, but that header against United showed when the occasion demands he can be absolutely brilliant in the air as well!”
You mention his awareness and his vision of the whole pitch, and that seems to allow him to always make the right decision …
“Yes. When he has the ball, he’s not just running aimlessly, he’s running with the ball at his feet at great pace, but still under full control and with complete awareness of everything around him. I remember speaking to Alan Hansen about Luka Modric, and he was saying that with great players, when the ball comes to their feet – or even before they receive it – they already have three or four options in their head about what they might do with it, and then they are invariably able to choose the right option. Messi obviously has that. He has been producing brilliance for years and years, and you’re talking arguably about the greatest player to have played the game – certainly the greatest player I’ve seen in the flesh. It’s not just all that natural brilliance he has, but also that he always delivers an end product to go with it.”
Do you think he’s changed as a player over the years?
“Yes, and great players are always able to adapt. We saw that when Luis Suarez arrived at Barcelona and at first there was various interchanging of roles before they found the right way to play together. Messi has always been able to change his game. He’s played in a variety of positions throughout his career and he’s produced world-class performances wherever he’s been asked to appear on the pitch. You can even imagine him playing in defence and still being brilliant. You maybe wouldn’t want him at centre back because of his height – although he does have that heading ability! – but he could easily play as a sweeper and see everything in front of him. He’s just an outstanding all-round footballer.”
Back in 2013, just after Messi won his fourth Ballon d’Or, you wrote in a BBC Sport article that this is the ‘Messi era’ – do you still think that now?
“I think it is the Messi era, but now we also have to say it’s also the Ronaldo era after the three Champions League titles he has won since then, and of course that will always be the great debate: who was the greatest player of the two? For me, and it’s only my opinion, Messi is the better of the two because I just feel he has a greater sense of team than Ronaldo. I’m not downplaying Ronaldo’s brilliance, but in my own mind I always feel Messi is more of a team player. That’s my personal view. And in this country because of Ronaldo’s time at Manchester United and the partisanship that sometimes inspires, probably fans of other clubs are more naturally drawn towards Messi with affection. And someone else who I think hasn’t received enough credit, probably because of Messi and Ronaldo, is a player who had maybe the greatest season that I’ve ever seen in the flesh, and that was Luis Suarez in his last year at Liverpool. That season he was nearly as good as those two. But certainly this will be remembered as the Messi and Ronaldo era.”
You’ve seen Messi in the Champions League and you’ve seen Messi at World Cups…does it feel different watching him play for Argentina compared to when you see him play for Barcelona?
“It does a little, yes. I was at the last World Cup Final when by his own standards he had a disappointing game. I don’t know why, it’s hard to put your finger on it, but there is something slightly different about watching Messi play for his country, almost as though he’s being held back when he plays for Argentina. Over the years he has been outstanding for Argentina, but because he hasn’t capped it by winning the World Cup maybe people aren’t as inclined to focus on the brilliance he’s produced for them. He’s certainly more identified with Barcelona – people associate him more with his club team than they do with his national team, perhaps because he’s played for Barcelona for so long and won so many trophies with them. Maybe it was different with Maradona, because he won the World Cup single-handedly – pardon the pun – and most people probably associate him more with Argentina than his club career.”
Do you think Messi sometimes tries to do too much for Argentina? Does too much responsibility rest on his shoulders?
“Possibly, although he has also been surrounded with great players for Argentina as well, like Sergio Aguero who will be remembered as one of the greatest strikers of the modern era. But Messi probably feels a greater sense of pressure and responsibility when he plays for Argentina. He feels that weight of expectation for his country, and we’ve seen that with lots of players in the past – even with England, there have been great players who have fallen short of what they would hope to achieve with their country. Sometimes we feel those players don’t have the same passion for their country as they do playing for their club, but with Messi maybe it’s the other way around – he probably feels even greater pressure when he’s playing for Argentina.”
“I think it is the Messi era, but now we also have to say it’s also the Ronaldo era after the three Champions League titles he has won since then, and of course that will always be the great debate: who was the greatest player of the two? For me, and it’s only my opinion, Messi is the better of the two because I just feel he has a greater sense of team than Ronaldo. I’m not downplaying Ronaldo’s brilliance, but in my own mind I always feel Messi is more of a team player. That’s my personal view. And in this country because of Ronaldo’s time at Manchester United and the partisanship that sometimes inspires, probably fans of other clubs are more naturally drawn towards Messi with affection. And someone else who I think hasn’t received enough credit, probably because of Messi and Ronaldo, is a player who had maybe the greatest season that I’ve ever seen in the flesh, and that was Luis Suarez in his last year at Liverpool. That season he was nearly as good as those two. But certainly this will be remembered as the Messi and Ronaldo era.”
You’ve seen Messi in the Champions League and you’ve seen Messi at World Cups…does it feel different watching him play for Argentina compared to when you see him play for Barcelona?
“It does a little, yes. I was at the last World Cup Final when by his own standards he had a disappointing game. I don’t know why, it’s hard to put your finger on it, but there is something slightly different about watching Messi play for his country, almost as though he’s being held back when he plays for Argentina. Over the years he has been outstanding for Argentina, but because he hasn’t capped it by winning the World Cup maybe people aren’t as inclined to focus on the brilliance he’s produced for them. He’s certainly more identified with Barcelona – people associate him more with his club team than they do with his national team, perhaps because he’s played for Barcelona for so long and won so many trophies with them. Maybe it was different with Maradona, because he won the World Cup single-handedly – pardon the pun – and most people probably associate him more with Argentina than his club career.”
Do you think Messi sometimes tries to do too much for Argentina? Does too much responsibility rest on his shoulders?
“Possibly, although he has also been surrounded with great players for Argentina as well, like Sergio Aguero who will be remembered as one of the greatest strikers of the modern era. But Messi probably feels a greater sense of pressure and responsibility when he plays for Argentina. He feels that weight of expectation for his country, and we’ve seen that with lots of players in the past – even with England, there have been great players who have fallen short of what they would hope to achieve with their country. Sometimes we feel those players don’t have the same passion for their country as they do playing for their club, but with Messi maybe it’s the other way around – he probably feels even greater pressure when he’s playing for Argentina.”
You’ve mentioned Maradona in 86, and that’s a shadow Messi will never escape, isn’t it? So many people always say to him: ‘Ok, Maradona won the World Cup, that means you have to win it as well.’ And doesn’t that just add to the pressure and the weight of expectation that you’re talking about?
“There’s definitely an element of that, especially with the manner that Maradona won the World Cup in 1986, scoring those goals against England and Belgium and then making a great pass for the winner in the final. He was just fantastic throughout the whole tournament. And yes, I suppose Messi will always have to live with that comparison until he does the same himself.”
With that in mind, do you feel – as discussed in this website’s first Long Read feature – that Messi has to win the World Cup to prevent his long-term legacy from being slightly tarnished?
“No, I don’t feel he needs to win the World Cup to secure his legacy. Maybe people feel differently in Argentina, but I think his legacy would already be in place if he quit playing tomorrow. I think if he won the World Cup it would cement that legacy even further, but it’s secure anyway. I might be in the minority there, but looking as a dispassionate observer, the way I feel about Messi’s qualities and what he’s contributed to the game, that would not be changed if he didn’t win the World Cup – but it would be confirmed if he did, if that makes sense. In my opinion, he doesn’t have to win the World Cup to be regarded as one of the greatest, if not the greatest, footballers who has ever played.”
But if he does win it, nobody would be able to throw anything at him – he’d have achieved everything, wouldn’t he?
“Absolutely, if he wins the World Cup he can put all his cards on the table and it would complete his collection. And I’d be absolutely delighted because somebody like that, who has contributed so much to the game and who will always be remembered, you want them to win it. But if he doesn’t, I wouldn’t even raise an eyebrow thinking it should be counted against him. He transcends that now. But if he does win the World Cup, many arguments might be settled!”
You know lots of journalists and people in the game from all over the world…what is the international perception of Messi and his place in the history of the game?
“I think it depends what era you come from. I never saw Pele, for example. There was a Football Writers’ Association ceremony a few weeks ago which Pele was due to attend but couldn’t because of ill health, and a lot of people were talking at that event about Pele being the greatest ever. But he never played in Europe, whereas Messi has won Champions League titles, which many people now regard as the pinnacle of world football. And he’s always delivered in those Champions League Finals – the header in Rome, as I mentioned, and then he was almost on another planet in the 2011 final against United at Wembley, when he scored another fantastic goal. The question of who is the best ever is a great debate and I don’t think there will ever be a definitive answer, but just the idea of Messi, watching him…he’s a player who excites. Wherever his name is mentioned, nobody ever says anything other than this is one of the greatest ever to have played football, and if Argentina get towards the final this summer there will be lots of goodwill towards him, because a player as great as he is deserves that accolade. Obviously I hope England will win it – probably a forlorn hope! – but certainly I think there will be an awful lot of goodwill from the global football community towards Messi if Argentina get to the final.”
And will that happen? What do you think of Argentina’s chances this summer?
“It will be hard for them because there’s strong competition, like Brazil and Germany. And France have an outstanding young team coming through so it will be interesting to see how they get on, especially after the disappointment of being beaten by Portugal on their own turf in Euro 2016. But of course Argentina have a chance. They have a lot of quality players as well as Messi, but he is the symbol and the spearhead, and any football team containing Lionel Messi always has a chance of winning any game.”
Follow Phil on Twitter @philmcnulty
What do you think? Does Messi need to win the World Cup before he can be considered the greatest? Join the conversation on Twitter with the hashtag #MessiLegacy
“There’s definitely an element of that, especially with the manner that Maradona won the World Cup in 1986, scoring those goals against England and Belgium and then making a great pass for the winner in the final. He was just fantastic throughout the whole tournament. And yes, I suppose Messi will always have to live with that comparison until he does the same himself.”
With that in mind, do you feel – as discussed in this website’s first Long Read feature – that Messi has to win the World Cup to prevent his long-term legacy from being slightly tarnished?
“No, I don’t feel he needs to win the World Cup to secure his legacy. Maybe people feel differently in Argentina, but I think his legacy would already be in place if he quit playing tomorrow. I think if he won the World Cup it would cement that legacy even further, but it’s secure anyway. I might be in the minority there, but looking as a dispassionate observer, the way I feel about Messi’s qualities and what he’s contributed to the game, that would not be changed if he didn’t win the World Cup – but it would be confirmed if he did, if that makes sense. In my opinion, he doesn’t have to win the World Cup to be regarded as one of the greatest, if not the greatest, footballers who has ever played.”
But if he does win it, nobody would be able to throw anything at him – he’d have achieved everything, wouldn’t he?
“Absolutely, if he wins the World Cup he can put all his cards on the table and it would complete his collection. And I’d be absolutely delighted because somebody like that, who has contributed so much to the game and who will always be remembered, you want them to win it. But if he doesn’t, I wouldn’t even raise an eyebrow thinking it should be counted against him. He transcends that now. But if he does win the World Cup, many arguments might be settled!”
You know lots of journalists and people in the game from all over the world…what is the international perception of Messi and his place in the history of the game?
“I think it depends what era you come from. I never saw Pele, for example. There was a Football Writers’ Association ceremony a few weeks ago which Pele was due to attend but couldn’t because of ill health, and a lot of people were talking at that event about Pele being the greatest ever. But he never played in Europe, whereas Messi has won Champions League titles, which many people now regard as the pinnacle of world football. And he’s always delivered in those Champions League Finals – the header in Rome, as I mentioned, and then he was almost on another planet in the 2011 final against United at Wembley, when he scored another fantastic goal. The question of who is the best ever is a great debate and I don’t think there will ever be a definitive answer, but just the idea of Messi, watching him…he’s a player who excites. Wherever his name is mentioned, nobody ever says anything other than this is one of the greatest ever to have played football, and if Argentina get towards the final this summer there will be lots of goodwill towards him, because a player as great as he is deserves that accolade. Obviously I hope England will win it – probably a forlorn hope! – but certainly I think there will be an awful lot of goodwill from the global football community towards Messi if Argentina get to the final.”
And will that happen? What do you think of Argentina’s chances this summer?
“It will be hard for them because there’s strong competition, like Brazil and Germany. And France have an outstanding young team coming through so it will be interesting to see how they get on, especially after the disappointment of being beaten by Portugal on their own turf in Euro 2016. But of course Argentina have a chance. They have a lot of quality players as well as Messi, but he is the symbol and the spearhead, and any football team containing Lionel Messi always has a chance of winning any game.”
Follow Phil on Twitter @philmcnulty
What do you think? Does Messi need to win the World Cup before he can be considered the greatest? Join the conversation on Twitter with the hashtag #MessiLegacy